Gypsies - Fact or Fiction

   

                 

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• (November 23, 2010, 07:14:21 PM)

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[Slick]

Please help - I’m a simple man and need some straight answers!

1 Has anybody read the consultation documents and background papers on the council web-site? Why oh why is it not written in a language we can all understand - half the people who read it will give up and not bother!

2 Let me get this right - Gypsies are travellers so why do they need a permanent site?

3 Where are all these travellers coming from?

4 Fact or fiction - does the crime rate go up where Gypsies pitch up?

5 Fact or fiction - is most fly tipping done by Gypsies?

6 How will a Gypsy site affect house values?

7 Do Labour run areas of the country have proportionately similar amount of pitches as Conservative areas?

8 What happens if the council simply refuse point blank to co-operate with central government?

9 What is New Labours agenda, what do they gain from it, is it purely spite?

10 What is the Conservative policy on this?
 

[Ben Murphy]

Slick, I will endeavour to help answer your questions...I have indeed read all of the documentation on this issue.

1 Has anybody read the consultation documents and background papers on the council web-site? Why oh why is it not written in a language we can all understand - half the people who read it will give up and not bother!

The plans itself and the consultations questionnaire have been edited several times to try and make them as user friendly as possible.  However, the Council have to provide this information in planning terms.  If you need help understanding any of this, please feel free to contact me or Forward Planning at EFDC on 01992 564000.

2 Let me get this right - Gypsies are travellers so why do they need a permanent site?

Most Gypsies and Travellers have 'permanent' sites on which they live.  However, at certain times of the year, they will travel from their 'permanent' site and return at a later date, as some people may choose to do with holidays in the settled community.

3 Where are all these travellers coming from?

These provisions are being made from Gypsies and Travellers already living within Epping Forest.  Some are those who are currently camped illegally or with temporary permissions to use the land for housing purposes.  Some are those who have grown up with their families in Epping Forest and are turning 18 who wish to now establish their ownn families and need their own pitches to be able to do so.

4 Fact or fiction - does the crime rate go up where Gypsies pitch up?

There is good and bad in each individual, as with the settled community.  We have to remember that these Gypsies and Travellers have been living within our communities without any trouble for many years now.  Many residents have expressed concern that the police won't be able to cope and that crime will rise, but given the fact we don't have many problems at the moment, there is no evidence to suggest that would change?!

5 Fact or fiction - is most fly tipping done by Gypsies?

Fiction!!  If you believe this not to be the case, show me your evidence.

6 How will a Gypsy site affect house values?

I can't honestly answer this question I'm afraid.  However, I can say that this is not a sustainable objection in planning terms and will be irrelevant to the Government Inspector, as the issue is based upon prejudice.

7 Do Labour run areas of the country have proportionately similar amount of pitches as Conservative areas?

No.

8 What happens if the council simply refuse point blank to co-operate with central government?

The Government will appoint an Inspectorate Team to come and select and implement the sites on our behalf.

9 What is New Labours agenda, what do they gain from it, is it purely spite?

I am able to speak on behalf of the Labour Party or the Government, but I can say that the Government have reprioritised the provision of housing for Gypsies and Travellers and put them at the greatest point of need, which is why the Government wish the District Council to implement this plan so quickly.

10 What is the Conservative policy on this?

Again, I am not speaking on behalf of the Party, but from the statements which have been made in the House of Commons and are publicly available, Conservative MPs seem to oppose this policy vehmently!  However, with that said, even if there were a change of Government in May next year or the year after, it would take approximately 5 years to turn this policy and all of the supporting legislation around, but which point the plan would have been fully implemented.

I hope this helps to answer some of your questions Slick and I hope you will read the plan and complete the supporting questionnaire.

[Smiffy]

Hello Slick,
                     it's a shame you never went to the meeting in Epping hall last night (10th Novembr) this was with the planning dept? They would of answered all your questions. I can answer a couple for you, because alot of people were concerned about the value of their houses and I'm afraid to say your house value will drop big time, they didn't actually say that but one of the planning officers was very concerned that this would happen.I heard that someone had phoned an estate agents and he said you would lose 30% of it's value? But you cannot not use this as an objection (because they, the council/goverment don't give two shits what your house is worth, it's not in their interest) as for your question number 3 some of them are coming from Nazeing where they are on illegal sites? That's what they told us last night (why they can't stay there, I don't know) question number 8, if the council refuse, they will be forced by the Goverment to find these sites or the Goverment will do it themselves? There were some very angry people there last night and it got a bit heated as you can imagine? It seems to me they just want to get this over and done with (they don't care about our human rights, toss pots! And I don't give a shit what I should or shouldn't say on this website, I'm so angry and I don't think these people, council/Goverment understand our anger! I hope I answered some of your questions for you. I think the next meeting is on Friday 14th does anyone know where it is?

[Smiffy]

Ben,
         it's seems some of your answers are slighty different to mine? I was at the meeting last night and that's what they told me, why do we keep on getting different answers all the time, people are getting really pissed off?

[Smiffy]

And by the way, the planning dept couldn't even get the plans correct, there were spelling mistakes and some places were given wrong names. Just hope it all goes tits up when they decide to build them! 

[Ben Murphy]

Smiffy,

Indeed I do.  It's at 7.30pm on Friday night in Epping Hall, St. John's Road, Epping.  I will be Chairing the meeting.

I think it is unfair to say that your Councillors don't care how you feel.  I'm doing all I possible can to help and to explain to residents what we need to do to tackle these issues, which is why we have called the public exhibition of plans, the public meetings and the extraordinary Council meetings.  We want to support you as much as the process will allow, but we appreciate the Government have put us all in an impossible position and the outcome of this matter is going to be loose-loose as far as residents are concerned, regardless of what we do to make the process easier, which is all we can actually do!

[Ben Murphy]

What answers are you referring to specifically and I will try to explain...?

Indeed, there are some inacccuracies which have been identified.

[Gazza]

It was the question about where are they coming from and we was told Nazeing and I've just looked at your reply and it does say witin Epping, did you also mean Nazeing or did you not know that? (sorry and I don't mean to be rude when I say that) Ben, what really annoys me and many others from the meeting  last night is this issue of the value of our houses, I suppose your sick and tired of hearing this but you know this will seriously affect the value of our houses ( it's not Rocket Science) Some of us don't want to live in Epping all of our lives? And there is no way someone would buy a house with Gypsies in your back garden and talking of back gardens, why are so many of these proposed sites next to people's back gardens? Couldn't they go somewhere, where it is a bit more open like I did when me and the family moved from London 3 years ago? If this goes ahead, it will ruin people's lively hood and anoter question is why doesn't Gordon Brown have any where he as his Country Mansion is? (It makes me sick) 

[Macspur]

All of the sites chosen are an absolute joke. They seem to have chosen sites in order to create public outcry.
If I could I'd move out of EFDC asap, cos the whole area is going down hill rapidly.

MacSpur

[Ben Murphy]

Sorry Smiffy, it actually says Epping Forest, which of course refers to the District of Epping Forest, including Roydon and Nazeing where we have our main encampments.

Let me take your other points one at a time.

Houseprices - I entirely empathise with you and everyone else who has spoken to me about this issue.  I too own a house in Epping, which isn't directly effected, but is still within the town and may be impacted.  It is completely and utterly unfair that the Government would put this on you, but they are and they have quite clearly stated that house prices are not to be considered in planning terms.  House prices will only drop because of the perception some people have about Gypsies and Travellers.  A few years ago someone said that the way Gypsies and Travellers are treated by the general public is the last accepted form of racism we have alive and well in today's society.  I don't know whether this is true, but the Government, through this policy and other legislation, seem to be agreeing and we have to play by their rules.

In answer to your question about back gardens - as I said last night, the Government's guidelines for these sites is that the sites must be close to the settled community and have access to transport links, schools, hospitals, shops etc.  They do not want us creating sites in the middle of nowhere, as the point of need for housing will not lower in those terms.

Finally - I would be interested in any response you obtain from The Prime Minister on that issue.

[Ben Murphy]

Macspur,

I keep saying this and I'll say it again.  The public outcry is mainly because almost every town and parish in the district is effected in some way by the proposed sites.

Out of the 27 that are being consulted upon, it may well turn out that just 4 or 5 are selected to house these pitches, which means the vast majority are uneffected.  However, residents are in a state of panic at the moment for a number of reasons, lack of information, lack of understanding, frightened their houses won't sell, concern that their businesses will be ruined, worry for fear of crime etc etc etc, so everyone is in overdrive as to what to do and how to do it.  Of course, the planning jargon used doesn't help matter which is why we are trying to have public meetings and discussions to explain matter more clearly and explain to residents what they can do and how they can do it.

If anyone has any better ideas on how I can manage this process better from the Town Council's perspective, I would be only too pleased to hear from you.

[Debs]

In fairness Ben, I don't think it makes one bit of difference how many meetings and discussions are planned.  No matter how it's dressed up, not one person will welcome an invasion of travellers and gypsies into the area that they live in and have bought with their own hard earned money, whilst paying taxes to keep the likes of these people in benefits.  This is being forced upon us and, let's face it, will any of us really be listened to?   You're saying it "has" to go through, I'm sure that preferred sites are already known and no matter how many letters or phone calls are received, the outcome will be the same.

[Gazza]

Hello Ben,
                    please don't feel I'm personally attacking you, I appreciate what your doing,  you must be getting a bit fed up with all this like the rest of us? And we could talk about this until the cow's come home! As you said it will happen and there is nothing we can do about it, whether it is 2 sites or 5 sites many people will suffer. One of the planning officers said last night  that there will have to be 49 sites/pitches by 2011 that could possibly be 100 families? Is this correct? The meeting on Friday is it a Question's and Answer's debate! And I would love to ask the PM about having any proposed sites where he lives (and I don't mean Downing Street) but there's not much chance of that happening is there, unless you know someone who could ask him..... 

[Gazza]

[ that they live in and have bought with their own hard earned money, whilst paying taxes to keep the likes of these people in benefits.  [/quote]

Well said Debs!

[Symo]

Originally posed by Ben Murphy - with blue questions added my me!

Slick, I will endeavour to help answer your questions...I have indeed read all of the documentation on this issue.

Most Gypsies and Travellers have 'permanent' sites on which they live.  However, at certain times of the year, they will travel from their 'permanent' site and return at a later date, as some people may choose to do with holidays in the settled community.

This does not happen at sites in Roydon & Harlow. Why would this happen in the proposed sites?


These provisions are being made from Gypsies and Travellers already living within Epping Forest.  Some are those who are currently camped illegally or with temporary permissions to use the land for housing purposes.  Some are those who have grown up with their families in Epping Forest and are turning 18 who wish to now establish their ownn families and need their own pitches to be able to do so.

Do you have documents that prove all the gypsies / travellers that are to be housed in the propsed sites are already living within the Epping Forest District? Can you give us the locations of these "illegal" sites?


There is good and bad in each individual, as with the settled community.  We have to remember that these Gypsies and Travellers have been living within our communities without any trouble for many years now.  Many residents have expressed concern that the police won't be able to cope and that crime will rise, but given the fact we don't have many problems at the moment, there is no evidence to suggest that would change?!

Do you have any data from Essex Police to back up your claims?


5 Fact or fiction - is most fly tipping done by Gypsies?
Fiction!!  If you believe this not to be the case, show me your evidence.

Mayor, where is your "evidence" that gypsies are not responsible for fly tipping in areas they live in? – It’s not the electorates place to prove these things!!!


7 Do Labour run areas of the country have proportionately similar amount of pitches as Conservative areas?
No.

I understand they do and that they've said they are not going to play ball (Oxford). Is this incorrect?


10 What is the Conservative policy on this?

Again, I am not speaking on behalf of the Party, but from the statements which have been made in the House of Commons and are publicly available, Conservative MPs seem to oppose this policy vehmently!  However, with that said, even if there were a change of Government in May next year or the year after, it would take approximately 5 years to turn this policy and all of the supporting legislation around, but which point the plan would have been fully implemented.

Hold on! The Conservative lead Council have come up with these unsuitable and unsustainable locations!!!

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